The Camaro Club (UK)

Yep but the huge tyres will give it away.

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Some bad news in this thread ,but Top Cat seems to point a way out of our difficulties..
Keep the mods mild rather than wild and make aftermarket stuff look stock .
I'm currently re-thinking some of the ideas for my coupe project [won't use aftermarket A-arms ]
Was also planning "big brakes '',but will stick to stock GM now.
Thanks for giving us the"heads up" Nige ,its far better to live in the real world and know the facts than live in a fools paradise.
On the positive side GM gave us a wealth of heavy duty parts if you know where to look.

Hi guys im a member of the N A S C it is a national (umbrella) for lots of car club and for aproximately the last five or six years we have been asked to pay a small amount extra on our membership ,classed as a levy to help fund the fighting of BS that we are all now discussing and by all accounts things could have been a fair bit worse (if you can belleve that ) they are as a lot of national car club linked to the ACE guys if any one is interested contact the ACE guys this could be to help keep our hobbies/lives with cars ongoing .This BS IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY so DONT BURY YOUR HEADS IN THE SAND tomorrow is just around the corner Cheers Neil PS speaking of tomorrow hols here we come so pics of Drayton Manor will have to waite sorry i know you guys like pics (me toooooo) PPS if anyone wants to go to the N A S C website it http://www.rodandcustom.co.uk Just read 68firebirds post thats what i like think of other ways to achive what you want as whats already been said some times less is more (nothing wrong with more)keep it possitive guys

I couldn't agree more with the way you're thinking . As to the brakes, you don't nescessarily need big brakes to make a car stop well, you just need good pads/linings. Some of the aftermarket brakes aren't that good anyway, unless you specify a "race type pads". An "internet friend" of mine from Sweden fitted some big Baer, multi pot caliper brakes to his '69 Camaro & took it to a track day. There was an instructor there that took him out in his car for a few flying laps. After just a couple of laps, the front pads caught fire (there's photos on the net somewhere).

The friction material in some of these aftermarket brakes are pretty much similar to standard equipment linings, so aren't guaranteed to work/last in racing conditions anyway. IMHO a lot of it is just "bling for the bling factor". But take the likes of Top Cats car with standard equipment brakes & it works on track perfectly. It's all down to the type of pads/linings used & a few other little tricks to make it all work.

cheers...Nige

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Too much power...not enough hands!!

I have GM big brakes on the front of my car, but doubt they will pass as standard (from a Corvette). Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Hot Rodding is all about being individual IMO, and this law is going to deny a lot of people that, who cares if you can make standard suspension work? all I can say is well done, I wanted something different and no doubt so do a lot of other people. If I was going to be racing in a historic series, then yes, standard suspension it would be (I was actually thinking of starting another project car to do just that - won't be now).

My car is too far down the line to reverse now, unless the Government or VOSA are willing to give me a grant to pay to remove all the modifications, (which I doubt), I've put too much time,money and effort into the car, so I'm not going back now. I've had modified cars for years, and I always start with the brakes and suspension and make sure the chassis can handle the power before doing engine mods. Under these new laws, my daily driver (although not a historic car) will be illegal next year as well.

There are probably thousands of other rodders out there in the same predicament, funny how a lot of this is only coming to light now, maybe VOSA could have been a bit more pro-active in keeping everyone up to date with this sort of information, and before you all jump on me, no, I did not know anything about ACE until now, I only know what stuff has changed when I've gone for an MoT, and that's mainly to do with emissions.

Hopefully there will be no laws against using my car as a track day car, at least I won't need to have 2 sets of wheels, I'll just have slicks, as it will be on a trailer.

Yep, you guessed it, I'm in a foul mood.

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'68 Camaro

Can't be ar*ed to go back through the thread, but here is the points system that's been mentioned. You start off with 14 points, for each modification you lose the points listed. If you go below 8 points, then you lose your original registration mark, and then the car is subject to IVA/ESVA/SVA or whatever, which is where the problems start :

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated, IVA, ESVA, SVA or MSVA will be required.


P.S. I noticed that the Classic Camaro Club is not yet a supporter of ACE, is this something we all want to support?

Cheers,
Mark

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'68 Camaro

Wow mark, you are in bad place at the moment aren't you?? This information has been in the public domain for quite some time now, so it's not something that VOSA have just implemented. Unfortunately, what has now caused this "problem" is the apathy shown towards the ruling by the great majority of people. Prior to the laws being implemented, almost everyone, aftermarket manufacturers included, said "it won't happen/can't happen"! Consequently, no one did anything to stop the laws coming into being. It's the old "head in the sand" syndrome isn't it? Now unfortunately, they are law & the EU government want us to implement them to stop "unsafe/illegal" vehicles being on the road.

ACE was set up to try & enlighten people as to what was happening that could/would affect the car modifiers/aftermarket suppliers. They've really had an uphill battle trying to get this information across, as people simply do not want to believe it could happen. Even now, people are convinced it won't affect them & have the "come & get me copper" attitude. When it was common knowledge that US tyres might not be able to be imported due to the aromatic oils in them, people were saying "I'll import my own to get around it". It is now illegal to import the majority of US brand tyres & if caught doing so, you face a very heavy fine of £1000's of pounds. Northhants tyres, who are probably the largest importer of US tyres has now come forward to say that they're having difficulty buying/importing/supplying certain brands of US tyres. If only more had been done at the discussion stages, then it might not have come into law, who knows??

"Hot Rodding is all about being individual" may be true in essence, but Europe have had it bad for a great many years now, even in the US they're having problems in certain states getting modified cars on the road. We've had it soft for a very long time, but now we need to think of what we're building & make it comply. Just because you have to comply to certain rules, doesn't mean that you can't build stuff in a certain way/style. It's been proven that you can build a rod, kit car or modified car to comply with BIVA without it looking like a dogs dinner. Some of the cars built to comply with the regs look just like any other to all intents & purposes.

Mark, you don't have to be racing in historic racing to have good brakes & suspension. A lot of the aftermarket stuff that you see advertised, such as A arms & big disc conversions are no better than uprated stock stuff, it just costs a shed load more. As I said in my previous post, my friend Jannes, torched his Baer brakes after just a few laps & they ended up in a smouldering heap. Just because it's aftermarket doesn't make it "right". With brakes the thing that ultimately stops you is the friction between the tyre & the tarmac. Prior to that it's how good your brake pads are at gripping the brake rotor. If you fit aftermarket pads, or even go to something like Carbotech produce (race brake lining manufacturers), your pads will grip the rotors ferociously & bring the car to a standstill very very quickly. The other thing that gives good braking is good tyres. US tyres are absolutely crap IMHO & are like driving on banana skins. Fit some good European tyres like Yokohama onto your car & it'll handle & stop extremely well. As for suspension A arms, unless you're trying to get a full race set up in your car, you can adjust the stock ones to work very well & in most cases if the car's set up properly with a "tuned" suspension/brake package it'll out perform most drivers on the road ie the driver will "bottle out" before the car does.


In the US they all have this pro touring crap fitted to their cars with 800hp engines & what do they do with them?? They drive (sorry "race") around cones in a car park!! they don't even get out of 2nd gear most of the time. If you've followed the saga of Steven Rupps Bad Penny Camaro, you'll see that he's had no end of aftermarket parts fitted to his car, swapped them out for something else allegedly better & then swapped it out again 'cos it didn't live up to the hype. Why keep swapping stuff out?? because it didn't do what it said on the box.!!!

I feel that all this aftermarket stuff like A arms, huge brakes, coil over rear ends etc etc etc, are just "bling" items for people that want to show off what they've got, so that others will think their car is great. I don't subscribe to that philosophy at all. I may have upset a few of you on here with those comments, sorry if it has, but it's how I feel. If you'd been in a car with properly set up OEM style equipment, you wouldn't want to waste your money on aftermarket stuff. Mark, I'll have to take you out in my "old school" '69 to show you what I mean

I'm getting off my soap box now & gonna go for a run in a car that has old suspension & brakes. Oh, that'd be my "legal" car then (all the above very much tongue in cheek)

cheers....Nige

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Too much power...not enough hands!!

The bad place was not even to do with this, it just topped everything off

I can totally understand them trying to stop unsafe/illegal cars. I was all set to book my car in to an engineer to give it a good going over before I started screaming down the road at 30 miles per hour ociffer

I can see that ACE have had a struggle to get the word out there, as I've only ever heard of them from this thread! I've got to admit, I only heard of Rods 'n' Sods through you Nige I didn't even know about US tyres until you mentioned it at the Essex Swap meet, but I don't buy their tyres anyhow, especially when there are good tyres over here already, seems funny that they have aromatic oils in them - is that to make them smell nice while driving around in Cali ?

As for coilovers being bling? (I do know that the Yanks like their billet hinges, air con etc), my cars over the years have always had coilovers, I like the way they make the car feel/handle. My goal for the Camaro right from the start was to put coilovers on it, and lighten the whole car with certain suspension mods etc (tubular control arms), long before the "Pro Touring" crowd came along, just at the time I did not have the funds to keep the car on the road, let alone modify it! I don't actually have huge brakes, well they are not that big anyway and they are only 4-pot calipers, certainly better than the original disc setup though! The enjoyment of all this suspension would be from setting it up, and getting to handle the way I want it, which may not happen now due to these laws. Oh well nevermind. As for Bad Penny and Steve Rupp, I just think he doesn't know how to drive properly I actually like watching the vids that Flash68 posts when he goes on his trackdays

But you've got to admit, there are plenty of cones on our roads, so we do need to be able to weave through them at some point

So probably next year, I'll be looking for a buyer in the US/OZ or one of the Scandanavian countries to see if they want a properly built 68 Camaro, and not a bodge job that's come out of a shed

On a side note, I looked at the prepared letter on ACE, it's actually more to do with driving historic vehicles on a daily basis (who does that?), not really putting across the point of modifications, but I admit, I did skim read it!

Cheers,
Mark

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'68 Camaro

This might be useful, though it's not for modified cars per se.

http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/topic/ ... line-37050

cheers...Nige

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Too much power...not enough hands!!

This could be more doom & gloom possibility of black boxes being fitted to cars

http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/chat/b**ll*x-37041

cheers.....Nige

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Too much power...not enough hands!!