Moved this into the General chat area as it's probably gonna get viewed by more people here.
Ok, I've a bit of spare time to try & run through some of this. I posted some of this stuff a while ago, it gets a bit drawn out & long winded, but it's well worth reading EVERYTHING, to see how it affects you.
As Chevy Stu says, there are proposals being brought about as to what constitutes a historic vehicle. This could really cause problems with far reaching consequences.
Here are some links for you guys to understand what's happening regarding modifying your car & how it could become illegal to drive your modified Camaro, or any other car for that matter.
Here's a link to ACE, check out all of the legal info available here
http://www.the-ace.org.uk/
There's been a thread running on the "rods n sods" forum with a lot of info on this. Take the time to read the whole thing as it explains all of the problems that are likely to be faced re modified cars. Things like changing your suspension, axle & engine, cutting into the monocoque, tubbing it, modifying the chassis, etc etc could make your car illegal if the legislation comes into play in 2012. Here's the link
http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/topic/ ... -now-27029
Also a lot of American tyres are likely to be banned & there's apparently a shortage now. Here's a link which starts to explain the tyre problem at posts number 15 & 21, although the thread is regarding the laws that are going to change regarding towing a trailer, which may require you to take a seperate test:-
http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/topic/ ... icle-29500
The Mopar boys are aware of this also, here's a link to their forum ragarding this topic:-
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34366Some
The point is that no one will be able to modify a car beyond the very mild mods that fit in with the 8 point system. The fact that a "certified pro" carries out work will not make an ounce of difference unfortunately.
You can fit like for like, ie different year of manufactured parts, it's when you start to deviate from stock, ie the likes of different engines, suspension, brakes, axles, body mods etc etc that you could fall foul of the 8 point system that's now in place.
Modifications such as narrowed chassis or tube chassis, wheel tubbing, any cutting into the bulkhead to fit a larger engine, fitting different axles, modified suspension etc etc would make a car fail the VOSA test & be deemed to be illegally on the road. They would be sent straight for a BIVA test, which by its very nature, the cars can't pass.
The Landrover boys had the attitude that this would never affect them, until that is, a VOSA team waited en masse for them to leave one of their big events & pulled them all over for inspection. Guess what?? Cars were "tested" at the site for compliance with a large number of them found to be "illegal". Those found to be illegal were impounded.
This does not only apply to cars from 2012 onwards, it is retrospective. Over the years a lot of our modified stuff has been bought by Europeans, because their laws prohibit them from building/modifying cars.
However, with the EU laws coming into play, & unfortunately we ARE a part of the EU, we are expected to fall in line with them, which means no modifying or building of cars outside the 8 point system UNLESS it goes for a BIVA test. This is already law, though not really enforced at this moment in time regarding our types of cars.
The basic 8 point system is made up of the following criteraia, this affects ALL cars, not just historic registered ones.
Chassis /monococque 5 points, original steering assembly/suspension 2 points, engine 1 point, transmission 2 points, giving you a total of 10 points which is acceptable. Modify the chassis/cut into the floor or bulkhead & you'd lose 5 points straight off & have to head for a BIVA test. So any structural modification to the shell will make the car illegal.
The most common reasons for being discovered at the moment are number plate transfers, random DVLA inspections, inconsistent V5C /MOT details, inspection following body style changes , being reported for various reasons. It is rumoured though, that a form of "super MOT" might be introduced as of 2012 to find out whether cars have been illegally modified outside the 8 point system.
Admittedly, if a car looks original then it'd be nigh on impossible to see if changes had been made, but get into the realms of upgraded aftermarket parts & it'd become obvious, which would mean a trip to have a BIVA test, which our types of car wouldn't pass in a gazillion years. Up until now there's not really been a problem with modified cars, but there's been talk of a "Super MOT" coming into place in 2012.
At this moment, the FBHVC,( Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs), which is the only body that is in liason with the government, have said that as far as they're concerned, the owners of historic vehicles only cover 1500 KM per year, so they're looking to have that limit to mileage brought into law. The FBHVC don't want historic vehicles used as dailies & they have no regard for modified cars either.The guy you talked with, with the Bentley, probably doesn't do that sort of mileage in his old cars anyway, so he's sitting pretty. If it does become law, how long do you think it'd take to clock up 932 miles (1500 KM). A couple of shows??
No doubt the thought of disconnecting the speedo has entered your minds, the problem is that it may also become law, that if you want to drive your historic vehicle, you'd have to apply to use it in advance, notifying the relevant department of the mileage to be done. This system is already in place in some of the EU. So not only are the laws coming into force in 2012 going to outlaw certain modifications, but could well limit annual mileage with restrictions on how & when your car can be used. the 1500km restriction is aimed at vehicles with historic status, though at the moment there are no plans to be able to just pay the additional tax to use your car over & above 1500 km. There is no one fighting for this legislation to come into play, as at the moment all talks with the government are being carried out by the FBHVC, who aren't interested in our types of cars. Their interests lie in Veteran & Vintage cars. Guess who is the president of the FBHVC?? Lord Montague !!!
Here's a quote taken from their web site:-
"FBHVC’s underlying aim, however, is to preserve the present freedom to use old vehicles on the roads without them having to be up-rated to meet modern standards. Thus FBHVC will campaign against proposals that, if they became law, might restrict existing rights of use or require owners to modify their vehicles in a significant way."
The FHBVC don't want historic cars to have modern parts fitted & are going to "campaign against" it.!!!
Obviously the above only affects historic registered vehicles.
Talking of newer cars, there are plans to make a law regarding car glass. When that comes into force it'll make it impossible to import any American car up to 10 years old as the glass won't meet EU standards. That means you'll no longer be able to import any new American car. So as of 2012 the likely hood is that there won't be any more imports of Yank cars up to 10 years old
Here's some questions that were put to the guys at ACE who are keeping an eye on the legalities of all this. The questions are just a broad outline to see what is & isn't allowed, most of which was aimed at rods & customs, though Yanks fall into some areas. ACE answers in blue.
1 I own a rod that has recently been built from all new parts & has been registered in the normal manner,(not BIVA), if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my rod, will it become illegal to use it??
Can my car be confiscated?
Unknown what will happen but if it is CURRENTLY registered Historic and does not meet FIVAs definition then it MAY be unusable. We see no reson for it being confiscated providing it is not used in contravention of any regulations
2 I own a historic vehicle that has had a V8 fitted in place of the 4 pot, with modified suspension & brakes, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it?? At what point would the government become aware of the changes?
Too many parts would have been changed for it to be accepted as Historic under FIVAs proposals .We do not know how the Government would find out , as these are only proposals, but a MOT check is as good a place as any.
3 I own a historic vehicle that has had a V8 fitted in place of the 4 pot, but has had the bulkhead modified to fit it, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it?? At what point would the government become aware of the changes?
Current situation. The vehicle is already illegal under the existing rules . The most common reasons for being discovered are number plate transfers, random DVLA inspections, inconsistent V5C /MOT details, inspection following body style changes , being reported for various reasons.
Proposals. It would still be illegal.
4 I bought a rod that had been built 20 years ago & is registered & on the road, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my rod, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT. Dependent of how correctly it is registered it may or may not be possible to claim Grandafther rights .
PROPOSALS . If it meets fIVA specs ( essentially Period mods only) it would be allowable as Historic. If it doesn't meet FIVA spec it would have no class to be registered in.
5 I own a late model car that has been chipped, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT. Ther are no laws in this country defining illegal tuning. However the new 2012 regs include aduty to chcek for this. It appears this is to do with the way cars from 2001 are taxed . ACE and ETO are liaising with manufacturers to get the best possible outcome via negotiations with VOSA / DfT.
For 2001> cars it is a grey area, if chip tuning is considered to be illegal because of its affect on taxation class so could wheels and tyres. From 2012 many new computer systems would mean effctively you cannot fit different wheels /tyres without 'upsetting the elctronic systems.
6 I own a car with a chopped roof, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it?? At what point would the government become aware of the changes?
If the car is a monococque it is already illegal . If on a chassis the chop itself is not illegal but other mods may render it so. It is a legal requirement to notify DVLA of changes to the monococque .Se answewrs above about awareness points.
PROPOSALS . As above.
.
7 I own a late model car that has a body kit fitted to it, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
Nothing currently , any changes will be when it hits 30 years old. However it is believed that body kits, different wheels and tyres and uograded barkes, like chip tuning may create issues for tha taxaton rate for post 2001 vehicles
8 I own an American car that has been tubbed, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT. If the chassis has been modified for the tubbing it is already illegal .When it was built will affect what should happne. It is probably impossible for a modified early Yank to pass BIVA due to glass specifications.
PROPOSALS . It would be illegal
9 I own an American car that has a hood scoop/ blower protruding through the bonnet, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it?
CURRENT . Taken as a standalone item, possible C&U problem but blowers scoops are allowable ,within regs, in BIVA test.
PROPOSAL If considered Period mod then no.
10 I've shaved the handles on my car & turned it into a Kustom, with the usual body mods, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT As a standalone item not illegal
PROPOSALS Probably considered a Period mod but performed out of period . Still legal.
11 I want to increase the size of the engine in my car, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT ,Not illegal to increase providing monococque/ chassis not altered to make it fit.
PROPOSAL Would NOT be illegal if that was ALL you changed, no others mods would be allowed, even wheels.
12 I own a fibreglass rod with an original chassis, but late model aftermarket parts, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my rod, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT. It may already be illegal dependent on when built and how registered
PROPOSAL .It will become illegal under the new regs 1) if not correctly registered in the first place 2) if the modifications are not period correct.
13 I want to make a fibreglass race car that will be street legal with a tube frame, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT Without BIVA test it will currently be illegal
PROPOSAL It would still be illegal . If correctly registered then it would be 30 years before it became an issue.
14 I own a tube framed steel car, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT. Dependent on when built it may already be illegal Anything built since '98 shoudl have used SVA ( now BIVA)
PROPOSAL Yes, it would be illegal as not 'Period ' mods
15 I want to fit bigger wheels/tyres to my car, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT . Not illegal
PROPOSAL as a Historic it would still be legal but it would be all that was allowed.
16 I own a 4 door car that's been converted to a 2 door, if the laws that are proposed come into force what will happen to my car, will it become illegal to use it??
CURRENT It is not illegal to simply weld up rear doors. However if you were to move the B pillar it is an illegal monococque mod.
PROPOSALS As a Non genuine model it would be illegal
17 If the alleged proposal to limit historic vehicle mileage becomes law, how will the law be put into force. What would happen if I were to change the speedo as it's broken?
It is not known how it would be enforced as it is only a proposal. Best guess is that as per some EU States you would have to apply in advance for a permit and travel to the venue by the shortest route there and back. Hence your mileage would be logged at Government level.
A lot of the above stuff that I've posted is of more concern to historic vehicles & the ability to keep that historic status, though ALL cars are governed by the 8 point system.
Sorry for the doom & gloom, but this isn't going to go away. If you're looking to change or modify anything on your car, you need to be aware of the implications of how they will be affected by the law.
Hope that helps a little
cheers....Nige
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