The Camaro Club (UK)

Hi

I'm in my final year at Northumbria University studying transportation design. For my final year project I'm looking into the future of American muscle cars once new emissions legislation is introduced in 2025.

I've currently been looking into alternative technologies that could replace the v8 whilst also trying to keep the spirit of the muscle car alive once it's gone.

My intention is to design a concept for a future Camaro and it would be extremely beneficial to talk to some owners about it and get their view on the future of American muscle.

Is this something you would be interested in/ being involved in?

Thanks for your time

Regards

Adam Briscoe

Hi Adam, I think you are going to struggle here. I have recently had conversations with 'musclecar' type people about what is important, and one thing definitely came through which is that the 'V8' sound is more important than speed/power. The future looks bad for big V8's and power seems to be available from a number of alternative sources, but buyers may not want that without the roar or burble of a a V8, no matter how slow it may be.
I have 2 musclecars, one is V8 and cannot be changed as long as I am racing it (rules) but the other currently has no engine (blown up by DPO) and I personally would love to fit a turbo diesel or hybrid electric power unit but practical and financial considerations render these options impractical at present. But it shows I am open to any/all power sources if they produce the results I want. I am in a very small minority though, due to the overwhelming 'V8 or die' approach of the majority. I wish you luck with your project, but expect resistance!
Cheers, Martin

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Everyone who speaks to me about my Camaro talk about the lovely sound it makes or how nice it looks. Future generations who haven't experienced the smell of petrol or the V8 burble won't worry about these things but that will be way in the future after the late 2020s I reckon.

Electric may be the future but recreating a full muscle car experience in the near future is a real challenge. Looks, acceleration and top speed can be replicated easily. The trick is to convince a driver and audience that a V8 is powering the car. Future muscle car owners will prefer the real deal.

Thanks for your opinion it's extremely helpful.

Ye I understand that the v8 makes the muscle car, and as a fan I will miss them when they are gone. But what if you could get a comparable sound from alternative power sources?

There's 2 concepts that I'm toying with currently. One is mini gas turbines like jaguar used in their cx 75 concept and rover used in one of there racers. As they will need an exhaust it should be possible to tune it to a comparable note and then you will get the sound of the actual turbine from the front which will add a unique sound and bring an added 'cool' factor to the hybrid electric systems.

The other concept is less blue sky. It's basically a v8 hybrid with cylinder deactivation technology. City driving and minimal mileage journeys will be electric. But when you want the sound and the power the v8 can kick in and bring the muscle car feel. By adding cyclinder deactivation technology which shuts off a number of cylinders when they aren't being used means journeys such as motorway driving would be much more economical because you would have better compression and less drag on the crack by using less cylinders.

What do you guys think of these? Personally, from a university project point of view the gas turbine concept gives me more potential to push the design due to the fact there isn't a v8 upfront. But there is the concern that it could be seen as disconnected from the muscle car roots

Nope, it has to have a V8 to be a muscle car and there are no exceptions I'm afraid, it'll come down to marketing not design in future years as to how well the boys who sell can convince the rest of the public that there is a "new muscle car". It's not about the sound it's about the entire package after all we have been convinced that salt in a dishwasher tablet is brilliant and that low fat food is good for us despite it being packed with sugar so why not tell folk a Prius with an extra battery pack is the new muscle car future? plenty of folk believe absolute rubbish nowadays because the media and marketing tells them to because they are too ignorant/gullible/stupid or just plain not interested enough to see the real picture. The future of the American muscle car lies in the hands of people like the forum members on here who will love and cherish their favourite vehicles and hopefully preserve them and the fun they are for future generations to enjoy

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1997 30th Anniversary SS SLP
1993 GMC Typhoon

How about smaller capacity say 4 ltr with cylinder deactivation. Electric supercharger and electric motors for city driving?

Personally by 2025 I'm hoping to have the current 8.4 ltr V10 Viper with the 4.1 ltr supercharge upgrade, because as everyone well knows 'there ain't no substitute for cubic inchs'

What do you guys class as the whole package?

Some good points brought up already

For me, the sound of a V8 is uncomparable and essential to a muscle car. Looks then come second.

For me, the whole package is made up of 2 parts. The engine sound and then the look.

When i talk about the sound, it's the American, offset V8 sound.. left, right, left, right, right, left, right, left that gives is that glorious sound. Weather it comes out of an open exhaust, or the standard pea shooter exhaust, they all sound amazing to me. Hearing a 70's station wagon with a v8 and stock exhuast is 9/10, hearing open header NASCAR sound is 10/10. In comparison, a 4 cylinder with an aftermarket exhaust is 4/10, a stock exhaust 4 cyclinder is 0/10. So a huge divide, almost incomparable for me personally. In terms of fuel, i don't care if it's dinosaur oil or unicorn poop. As long as it sounds like a v8 of today and yesteryear, that's what matters. Your option 2 and what was said by Z28Dunc are my personal choice (quoted below).

Vorspurng durch technic... we have the technology - let's use cyclinder shutdown technology (whatever it's officially called), introduce electric motors (switchable i.e economy mode) for when you are just back and forthing in traffic and don't mind being without the v8 sound for a few miles. Also should lift the ideas from F1 - turbo impellers / chargers etc. (was it mercedes who had the idea to use the electric motor to also spool up the turbo). Hydrogen is a good (starting to become) realistic option - you retain the engine operation and you get to use the most abundant resource in the universe as fuel. If we can nail down hydrogen technology, then we can keep the engines as they are. One last thing on the engines.. whilst the sounds is very important... nothing like having a car shake when you rev it in neutral. V8's sound like fire to me, a kind of tearing and ripping sound. That you will never get from an electric car, which is why a muscle car to me, couldn't be solely electric. I want some gold under the glitter
As for the looks... i like the modern Camaro, Mustang and Challenger. I reallllly like the original 60's and 70's muscle cars though. Really, really. Buicks, GTO's, Camaro's, cars i never heard of but still find one's i've never seen. They look right. The have curves, they stand out, just something about the styling that they got so right. I look at them and say... that's a car. If i had to show an alien what a car was... it would be a 70's era muscle car. Then i tell them, hey, this is what a car sounds like... and it would have a v8 in it, stock exhaust, whatever. It sounds mechanical, powerful, like it would take you to the moon and back. Like a Lion you see on some David Attenborough / Discovery show... chilling, relaxing, looks bad ass, then all of a sudden it's flying after some prey, massive leg muscles, ready to take down it's target.

That's the whole package... the sound, the rumbling you feel sat in the drivers seat and the look from the outside... a car that has curves, that doesn't look like it was designed by a commitee and be run of the mill, to please everyone, to be made effciently and in big numbers. It has to have... character.

It was mentioned on here earlier about performance... and i second it. You can get faster, better handling cars. My friend just traded up and got a brand new BMW 4 series coupe. Very nice. Fast. Electric seats, built in sat nav. Under warranty for 3 years. Paid a good £27k for it (plus part ex). Would i do the same? No. Would i exhange my 3rd gen or 2nd gen (or both) for one, with no extra cash? No. Don't get me wrong, great car, i like it when we go for a drive in it. But, i would not want it over my 2nd or 3rd gen. My 2nd gen is still in project build phase, my 3rd gen i see it and use it everyday. Everyday i walk up to it i go 'damn'. Everytime i start it, i go 'sweet'. Everytime i get out of the car, i get out and think, 'awesome'. That's the whole package. It's 1+1 =3. I would gladly home another 70's v8. It could be a buick station wagon. It could be a Chevelle. The style, the sound = the experience i want in life. Would i take a new Mustang / Camaro / Challenger, with a v8? Yes. Would i enjoy it as much? i don't think so, and i wouldn't trade mine to find out. Would i consider buying the Mustang with the 4 cylinder ecotech? Absolutely no way. it's 1+0 =0.

The future of the muscle car needs to retain the V8. Whatever fuels it, just get the sound and make sure it rocks when you floor it. It has to look like it would be found in a mad max film. You cannot just walk past a muscle car, it has to draw attention to itself. Not in a Lambo / Ferrari way... in a muscle car way. Everything about it needs to be big. Big curves, big grilles, big sound.

From my emotive descriptions... that's exactly what makes a muscle car - a car that conjures up raw emotions. Fire, passion etc. Glazing over the obvious, it has to be 'American'. Hence the big sound, big curves, obnoxious (in a good way) styling. I'm sure i grew up in the wrong country and wrong decade lol, that's why to me it's important that muscle cars are what they are.

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thanks 78 camaro thats extremely helpful and given me alot to think about haha.

Would I be right in saying a muscle car is about brute force? To me it's about power and looks and a complete lack of refinement, you can keep your ferraris, audis, bmw's etc with all the gizmos and gadgets and horrendous price tags, I want a big noisey torquey engine with RWD only, I don't want computers controlling everything or traction control ruining my fun either, I don't want Napa hide and polished walnut burr , I want half a beef cow with some plastic :-) I want it to clunk and melt tyres and go sideways when I press the throttle, I want to feel the engine working hard and know that it can take the punishment I'm about to give it not some highly tuned twin turbo ECU controlled fancy german or Italian engine that is like a rubber band stretched to its limit and costs £5000 for an oil change and £20,000 for an exhaust repair, most of all a muscle car has to be accessable so that people can afford to buy it and not be scared stiff of breaking it or getting it wet or dirty, unlike ferrari drivers I don't only drive fast through towns when there is an audience because my car is about fun not just posing and beating the neighbours

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1997 30th Anniversary SS SLP
1993 GMC Typhoon