The Camaro Club (UK)

Thanks for the good advice here! I'm starting to get a better understanding of it. So basically, a manual start just has a smaller cap on it. Why didn't GM just make them all small and leave it as that

So here's the latest conundrum.

I have a '78 Firebird with a knackered starter. I pulled it off, also pulled off the starter from the '79 camaro (which has a 74-76 block in it). I tested the Firebird starter by plugging it into the camaro - you turn the key and you hear a weak noise briefly and it's just dead after trying to restart. So ok, i know the started is definitely knackered. I looked at them side by side and measured and they are exactly the same. So i thought ok, i'll put the camaro starter into the firebird as they are both auto's, then i can get a high torque starter for the camaro and then it will be ok when putting the manual box in.

Slight problem... the firebird has all 3 bolt holes for the starter (both starters i currently have are staggered, which also leads me to believe the flywheels are 168 tooh). The camaro though, only has staggered bolts, no 3rd bolt to take an inline starter. Annoyingly, the firebird can take a mini starter as it has the extra bolt hole but it's auto and staying that way, so it makes sense to use the starter from the camaro. That would work but the bugger is that i can't put an inline starter into the camaro, which is what it needs when it goes manual. So i don't know what to do

There is the option of drilling and tapping a hole and i have watched a youtube how to of a guy showing the process (installs an inline mini starter or an auto to manual conversion on a '79 camaro) and it's pretty straightforward BUT i'm really good at f*cking things up and i realllllly don't want to drill too deep / at an angle / off centre and then do a bad job of tapping the hole (if i even have the right tap size, which i doubt i do) and i've never drilled and tapped before so this is the last place i want to start. So that one solution, is a very scary one (for me) that i'd rather not approach.

Powermaster do a mini size starter which will fit a manual, is staggered and 168 tooth BUT i don't know what size the manual flywheel will be, so if it's 153 teeth then i'm buggered. It's also quite a lot more expensive. They do a normal size which is staggered and i believe fits a manual, but need to double check. It's a bit more expensive than their inline but not as expensive as the mini sized staggered. Real Steel do a normal size which is staggered and says manual but it doesn't say the tooth count and then i'm still buggered if that changes with the manual.

Really no clue what to do now If it just had that extra hole from the factory this wouldn't be an issue, i'd go for the powermaster 9100 and be done

The simplest solution is to go with a powermaster 9100 as it's a mini so will work with manual as well as auto and it has both bolt holes for 153 and 168 tooth flywheels. But i'm really scared of messsing up drilling into the block.

Looking at taps, that gets confusing because there's more than 1 type - 1st tap, 2ns tap etc. I thought one was enough?! I've seen videos and how to's and only ever seen 1 used. I saw a set that has all 3, incase that's what's needed http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-8-16-UNC-HA ... xy63FSqExg
The size is 3/8 -16

Here's the vid i watched about the starter motor hole drilling:

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5 hours of research later and i'm none the wiser, just going slightly insane.

This one fits a manual but not an auto:
http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-336-1870- ... B000C9MK3O
This one fits an auto but not a manual:
http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-336-1824- ... B000C9LZSA

What the hell is going on?!?!!?!

If the manual has a smaller nose then by logic it should fit an auto!? Would it kill a manufacturer to put some specs / measurements up?! I just don't understand what the difference is

How can you have a mini starter that fits auto and manual and 153 and 168 size flywheels but none of the above is universal. It doesn't make sense

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Ok so after a bit more reasearch I found this thread which has a pic of the nose side by side:
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225170
I also found out that the flywheel from the manual will be 168 tooth, so that's good as it means that won't change.

So here's the bit i'm struggling with now. Ideally i will get a manual, 168 tooth staggered starter and install it now, with the auto box in place, and then when the manual is changed, the starter can stay in place.... right? Or am i missing something still? The current flex plate is 168 tooth and the new flywheel will be 168 tooth... so should work?

I can see that the auto has a larger nose, so it wouldn't fit into the manual bellhousing as was mentioned earlier. My train of thought is that if the manual starter has a smaller nose, it will work with an auto as well as a manual? Having taken 2 auto starters off this weekend, they don't interact with the auto bellhousing, they just have a plastic inspection cover around the transmission, so the smaller nosed manual one should work? The staggered mounting bolts are the same location, the diameter of the wheel it's turning in both cases is the same diameter? But then, why would GM make an auto starter, why not just use the manual one on everything? I don't get what i'm missing?

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I'll thrown some more worms into your can

When I replaced mine a few years ago, I went for a later design AC Delco 3371022. Typically fitted to 90's trucks. It's a mini starter in OEM style, staggered bolts and fits the 168 tooth flywheel. Difference in performance was night and day over the old heavy lump.

Can't confirm that it will fit a manual bell-housing, but being smaller there's a good chance.

It does need special conversion bolts, but I can help you there as I had to buy them in a pack of 5, so have 3 left over.

The more worms the merrier lol.

Thanks for the tip on that. Ye, ideally i wanted one of those style starters - being a "mid" sized (stock being large, small being the mini hi torque ones - the way i look at it anyways lol). These are nice as they weigh almost 1/3rd and will have better clearance and distance to headers.

According to this amazon review, it works on 168 tooth and 153 and manual and auto. Not 100% on the dual tooth as it would need seperate mounting holes to move it further outboard (based on the research i've done).
http://www.amazon.com/forum/-/Tx37DJC9U ... B007QBT0WA

I will have to read further into this as it could be a good solution! Interesting about the bolts, what's the deal with that part? Different length or something? Good to know you have some spare, if i end up going with this i'll purchase a couple of from you

I was tempted to buy an ac delco remanufactured manual starter and also an auto one. Total inc. postage would be £120 to my door. This was i know 100% they will fit - i'll keep the auto on the camaro, take the manual one up when changing the transmission, then use the reman auto on the firebired. Not 100% on the quality of the reman (though i have a reman alternator that gets used everyday and it seems ok) plus they are the old big style ones, having headers would be nice for extra room, plus installation will be a lot less physically painful. But, they would work.

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How to post pics: When writing a message, scroll down and use the "attach file" option. Where possible, a photo sharing service can be used such as Flickr, Imgur etc. The image location (usually ending in .jpg) can be copy and pasted between the ][ brackets that appear when you click the 'Img' button (you can find this button at the top of the message box).

How to post youtube vids: Click on the 'youtubeHD' button at the top of the message box and in the middle of the ][ brackets that just appeared, copy and paste everything from the youtube web address that appears after the = sign i.e if this is the url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cNqaPSHv0 just copy "K2cNqaPSHv0").

The bolts are a kind of metric/imperial hybrid. Designed for this retro fitting of a modern starter that normally uses a metric bolt and right size knurls, but with an imperial thread to match the older block.