The Camaro Club (UK)

I'm following an interesting thread on a Facebook group at the moment that involves VIN's and selling them etc. It got philosophical pretty quickly and there's still no answer (just a headache). Should probably note that this is purely a discussion as it gets really interesting trying to come up with a definition. I've no plans, just interested in the conversation side of things and needless to say the whole topic is just for conversation as when you dig into things, it becomes a very interesting subject.

The premise is, a person is selling a title and VIN tag and most people jumped on saying it's illegal however, interestingly, a point was brought up that there's no issue in selling a VIN tag and title as it can be kept as a collectors piece and some folks have brought up that they do indeed keep old titles and VIN's just the way people keep stamps. The illegal part is putting a different VIN onto a different car. Which sounds about right (but correct me if i'm wrong - i'm assuming the law is the same here as it is in the U.S i.e. you can sell something like that and what changes is when you make a swap, that's when it becomes illegal. Kind of example is keeping hold of a license plate from a car - nothing wrong with that as you're keeping it in a shed / hobby room / garage and aren't putting it onto another car, but if you did put the license plate on another car then you have a problem).

So that's where it gets interesting and when Trigger's Broom / Theseus's Ship comes into it. When is something the thing that it is?

A few scenarios:

Let's start with something easy. You have a Z28 but it's completely wrecked in every way possible inside and out. You also have a base model. So you miss the Z28 and buy some repro or parts from a breaking of a Z28 and make the base model into a Z28 clone. So far all good, you've just made a clone and all you'll get is a few mumbles at a car meet saying "my mate used to own that, it's not a real Z28 it's just a clone, i can prove it, look at the vin, see it's the wrong code for a Z28". Now, you decide ok, let's take the VIN off the Z28 and move it onto the base model. Bad, you've made a ringer and committed a crime. So that's a pretty easy black and white example of where the line is drawn.

So let's grey and blur the boundaries a bit.

You have a Z28 with a rear end collision. You get new, or from a breakers, rear bumpers, lights, bootlid and quarter panels. All good and it's pretty safe to say your car is still an original Z28.

Say you didn't have a rear end collision, but instead a front end collision. Ok, so change out the front bumper, fenders, bonnet, lights and windscreen. Still a Z28 right? Seems so.

Ok so now you get unlucky - you have a front end collision, fix as above and 1 month later the rear collision happens. So all the front and all the back is changed. Still a Z28? Seems so. But it does start to question, is it worth the same amount, or perceived as an original Z28? I mean, it's not how it left the factory. Perhaps you used all parts from another Z28 that was in for breaking. That would seem relatively ok. What if they were repro parts though? Everything but the shell (minus the rear quarters), chasis, engine, trans and axle are now repro and not even GM. We've also replaced the tyres, belts, shocks, springs, ball joints, filters, rusty fuel tank, brake pads, discs, hoses and lines. Is it still a Z28? I'd think so? Nothing illegal for sure.

Ok now let's really blur the boundaries. All of the above, plus the chasis got bent and was pretty rusted, as was the rear chasis legs, so you've got a new front clip and new rear rails and you changed out the trunk floor while you were there. Tranny needed replacing too and the engine was blown. The Control arms were bent too so they got replaced. What's left, that left the factory? Not a lot anymore - the inner shell is left, but we also replaced the the whole floor plan, all the glass was changed, so it's really the firewall and the inner shell. Everything else is repro / from another car. The interior was shot, all of it sundamaged and worn, so that's all repro. Is it still a Z28? I think so but we're starting to really get far away from what the left the factory, so why are we still calling it a Z28? Wouldn't our base model be a better thing to call a Z28, even if it is a clone? Everything on the base model is GM, so it's more original than the Z28 and looks exactly like one. So is it safe to say the VIN that makes it a Z28 and not the parts on it?

Ok let's take another step, the big one - the firewall is rusted out so take a sheet of steel and made a flat firewall. Looks nice. But what's left of the original car? (And our bank balance at this point!). Just inner structure and the cowel. The inner structure internally rusted so we replaced that with repro and the cowel is rusted too. So swap out the cowel as they make reproduction ones. Well, this is interesting - the VIN sits on the cowel. But we have to have a VIN on the car and the car over the past few years has slowly been restored and the license plate on the front matches the VIN on the V5, which has been on the car with all those parts of the years, so should be possible to put the VIN on it right? I mean, you can't have a rusted out cowel and have wet feet when it rains. So, it should be ok to put the VIN on the cowel right, i mean, it's still on the same car, it's the cowel that's being changed, the vin was already there on the car via the cowel so it's the cowel we're changing. So at what point can't you remove the VIN - it's still on the same car it was on for x years. So that seems ok? I think so. So now, we enter the paradox. Everything on the car is not original, apart from the VIN. But the VIN can't be transferred to a car that it wasn't on - but we've just done so and it's legal. Brain hurts. And that is the paradox. Has that been illegal or not? The car is the car but it's not the car but it's not a ringer as we didn't swap any cars over it's still the original car as there aren't 2 cars but it's not the same car So, is that case legal or illegal? And if illegal, at which point did it happen? As an alternate scenario - imagine you have the original all stock Z28 that's miraculous sat in one spot since new. Now, the cowel somehow got rusty, so you get the replacement cowel and only the cowel and replace it and put the VIN into the new cowel that's on the correct car, which still has the original air in the tyres. That's definitely not a VIN swap, it was the only way of fixing the car and the VIN is still on the original car, so nothing wrong there.

Here's a real example i know of:
Original '77 SE Trans Am (bandit style from factory). Body was rotten but the owner found a base model firebird and as they described it, "put the body onto the SE" or in other words, took the SE front clip and wheeled it under the base model. They then transferred the interior from the rotten SE shell, the TA fenders and shaker hood etc so it looked like the original SE they had. Only, it wasn't any more. Was that ok? Did they swap VINs? I can't remember. If they didn't, would that be illegal that they sold what was advertised as an SE when it wasn't really, it was kind of, but as we know, the shell isn't any different, the difference is in the interior and the suspension and the engine etc. So, was it an SE afterwards, if it had all original SE stuff in and on it? If they did transfer the VIN to make the VIN show it as an SE, then would that be illegal? If so, then does that mean the that transferring the VIN to the Cowel was the illegal part (see above thought regarding cowel replacement) even though the VIN would match the license plate which would match the engine, trans etc. What if, the owner didn't get a base model, stuck with the rust SE body and instead, to fix it bought new floor pans and quarters (don't know why they didn't do that!). That way they VIN wouldn't have moved from the cowel and the hidden VIN would match. That would have been much more sensible and I think it's fair to say that it would have been classed as the original SE without a doubt. However, what they did brings into question what part of the car is actually classed as the SE. And did they do anything illegal?

At what point is a car no longer the car it was and what no longer classes something as original?
In the case of VIN's in the above scenarios, at what point is it not ok to do something?

I can't figure out the answer. The black and white version is you can't take the VIN off of one car and put it onto another. But at what point are you doing this, or no longer doing this. A good example is the start of the original Gone in 60 Seconds. They take a wrecked Challenger (i think!) and take it's motor, trans and VIN off and scrap the rest. They steal an identical car and the only way it can be traced is by the VIN. So they take the VIN off of the stolen car and the engine and trans, and they put in the VIN and engine and trans from the wrecked car. Now if anyone checks, that is no longer the stolen car, the stolen one has disappeared and they now have a legit car that's not reported as stolen. That's a pretty clear case of what's illegal and why VIN swapping is illegal. But based on the scenarios above - where is the line drawn?

If you have a Z28 and a base model, and the Z28 is in a pretty bad state and the base model is pretty good, at what point of bringing over parts from the base model does it become not ok? I can't figure it out! Just as a note of clarity - i have no plans, just genuinely curious because of the facebook conversation and the paradoxes that exist (see below vids). It really does get deep into the topic of "what is really real" the more you think about it. Who are you? If all of your cells regenerate (which they do every ~5 years or so) and all the atoms in your body pass through, then you are no longer the same person you were a few years ago because all of those cells have died and new ones have replaced them. So you're not the same person but you are the same person, so what makes you... you?

Skip to 3:35:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6eSJs06eCc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYAoiLhOuao


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE

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In the UK, modification (not repair) to the original chassis or unibody of a car renders it's identity void. It should have an SVA and be re-registered.

On a Camaro that would mean that mini tubs, flat fire wall, 4 link, independent rear suspension etc all fall into that category.

Repairs which replicate the original form are fine, ie restoration.

With the Camaro, the identity of the car belongs to the shell from the firewall back.

However, the DVLA operate a points scheme that's really quite simple. Repairs to original specification are excluded.

You need to retain 8 points to keep the identity of the original vehicle. Changing engine, transmission and suspension together would take you below 8, unless they are original specfication.

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

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My '80 progress thread - hugger orange! Now with LQ9 power - forged pistons, LS2 rods, 236/242, .621/.612, flowed and milled 317 heads. MS3X

4L80e, 12 bolt, 4.11, Moroso brute strength posi, steel shafts.

Subframe connectors, g-braces, solid body bushes, carbon hood and front bumper, custom door cards, Autometer gauges.

You have an original z28, then you have a restored z28, or a cat whatever z28, either way it's a z28? The original.one would be worth more than the rest to some.folk, the resto would be worth more than the original to some, and the cat whatever write off would be worth a lot less

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1997 30th Anniversary SS SLP
1993 GMC Typhoon